XFCE and DE innovation

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entropyfoe
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XFCE and DE innovation

#1 Post by entropyfoe »

Nice short piece on DE innovation over at FOSS Force. XFCE comes outlooking pretty good for the new version.
https://fossforce.com/2019/07/how-user- ... x-desktop/
The Fallout
The short term result of these user revolts was increased choice. Xfce, for years the third most popular DE, surged in popularity, and today often polls better than Gnome. To a lesser extent, LXDE revived. New DEs, like Budgie and Linux Mint’s Cinnamon and MATE, were also created. All these DEs had two features in common: their developers listened to users, and changes were mostly small improvements rather than radical new directions.

If that second feature seems too much of a generalization, consider the upcoming Xfce 4.14 release. Developers have labored over it for several years, and I am sure it will be gratefully received by users. But although I have no wish to denigrate Xfce’s developers — who are only giving users what they want– consider the key features of the upcoming release: a migration to GTK3, bug fixes for the panel and other parts of the DE, and the optimization of the file manager. All are no doubt welcome, and the migration is no small matter, but have more to do with housekeeping than innovation.
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manyroads
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Re: XFCE and DE innovation

#2 Post by manyroads »

I have for years been a huge fan of xfce. :happy: Just recently I have, in large part due to my exploration forays in antiX, been playing (working) with a few tiling manager desktops. My favorite by a large margin is bspwm. Like xfce, it allows you to do almost anything you want. I truly am amazed at the flexibility that Linux affords those who seek it and the stability Linux provides to those who need that. But then I'm old, what do I know anyway :bagoverhead:
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KBD
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Re: XFCE and DE innovation

#3 Post by KBD »

Overall good article, though he seems to lament lack of innovation. What's so great about innovation on the desktop? Once you have a workflow, there are not that many changes that can be made without breaking that workflow. You have a square screen with 4 sides, how much innovation can there be?
This is why Xfce has risen above the pack. It lives by the KISS Principle. I like KDE, but honestly, it has a lot of crap I don't need and will never use. Same with Gnome, all those keyboard shortcuts don't interest me as I use a mouse even with my laptops.
I actually stick with the default setup for MX Xfce desktop as I mostly use small laptops and it saves screen real estate. But Xfce is so easy to configure that it should please everyone.

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entropyfoe
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Re: XFCE and DE innovation

#4 Post by entropyfoe »

KBD,

I agree. I think the author's point was that innovation on the desk top is not necessarily good and can backfire.

Hence the appreciation for the stability of XFCE, and how that matches the MX design philosophy.
And as he points out the key is "only giving users what they want"
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KBD
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Re: XFCE and DE innovation

#5 Post by KBD »

entropyfoe wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:23 pm KBD,

I agree. I think the author's point was that innovation on the desk top is not necessarily good and can backfire.

Hence the appreciation for the stability of XFCE, and how that matches the MX design philosophy.
And as he points out the key is "only giving users what they want"
It has certainly backfired several times :)
I like Xfce best, with MATE a close 2nd, 2 DE's that have changed the least.
Xfce is no doubt part of why MX is so popular :)

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masterpeace
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Re: XFCE and DE innovation

#6 Post by masterpeace »

This day marks my 2nd month of converting from win7 to MX as main "daily driver" (when i was on the other side the choice of word to daily driver is OS of choice / main OS , i sometimes rather confused with daily driver things) . I tried every DE that is available on MX installer . In all functionality and performance XFCE outperforms any DE in the MX Installer , KDE comes on 2nd place (i based into how fast it boot , how fast it loads , RAM consumption , load time under heat , boot time under heat , heat generated over time) .

Even with all that performance i hated XFCE because it reminds me of win7 (the crash and bsod still haunts me , please forgive me) . So i tried KDE Plasma , it sticks to my mind but not to my body . And other are just as alien as Hac OS X , so i came back to XFCE no matter how i hated XFCE , since it is still stick to my mind and my body , i just can't discard the old workflow i used in win7 after using it technically all my life . And XFCE do just that . In the end i don't regret return to XFCE .

Imho DE with innovation should stick mindset like KDE Plasma , you can have generic work flow like the majority , but can be as beautiful as ... let's say GNOME , and as fast as XFCE . I think KDE Plasma is in the right direction . But until then i will stick to the rat .

PS : please forgive me for my broken english

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Richard
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Re: XFCE and DE innovation

#7 Post by Richard »

@masterpeace,
I agree with you.

I like Xfce and the mouse (well I always thought of the Xfce mascot as a nice mouse and not a big rat. :)

Perhaps it is that, even after 20 years of Linux, I still prefer the work flow that began with Win95? MSFT spent a lot of money developing, testing and user testing. Probably more than they have done since, IMHO.

Nowadays, I enjoy that Xfce4 works even better than my old DOS favorite, Dr.Switch-It, which accomplished reasonably quick task switching on a 286 Toshiba laptop with an 80x25 char LCD monitor.
Dr.Switch-It worked even better on the Kaypro 10.

There was another DOS app, GEOS I believe it was, that came bundled with a computer I set up for my daughter that performed better task switching than Win95; but since DOS was being phased out GEOS never got the recognition it deserved. Again, IMO.

Looking forward to Xfce4.14 and MX-19.
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Re: XFCE and DE innovation

#8 Post by JayM »

Other programmers, though, were slow to learn the lessons of KDE 4.0. At the time, Linux’s popularity was still new, and many programmers were not used to criticisms from end users. Not long before, programmers and users had been close to synonymous. Consequently, many responded to criticism with sarcasm and suggested that the complainers should code the changes they demanded for themselves.
This is the problem in a nutshell: basic lack of professionalism and failure to follow design best practices. Innovation is all well and good, but without communicating with the user community and asking what they want or need, working behind closed doors, then presenting their innovative new DE as if casting pearls before swine isn't going to work. Any professional programmer knows this: you work with steering committees composed of representative end-users during the design process, then you work with alpha/beta testers during the implementation phase, and finally QA testers prior to rollout. If your product doesn't satisfy the needs of users it won't be well-received by them. Change only for the sake of change is not the way to do it, it has to be change that serves a real purpose, and you absolutely have to involve the users in the design process to ensure that your proposed changes do that. The only exceptions would be if building something according to management's specifications and orders (and if they don't involve their users they're poor managers and that's not a good place to work.)

The article laments that the desktop UI is pretty much the same as that of Windows 95 or earlier MacOS, but people have been used to using those interfaces since summer of 1995 and in the case of Macs even longer. The thing is, these UIs were very well designed indeed, and that's why they've stood the test of time. Changing everything around just to be "innovative" rather than to make using the computer easier, requiring everyone to relearn how to use their computers which takes time away from getting work done, is no good. That's what happened with Unity and Windows 8, which were designed for touchscreen monitors at a time when almost nobody owned one, with mousability being almost an afterthought. They disrupted peoples' workflow and tried to make them learn a new UI all over again, one that was harder to use with a standard mouse and keyboard. People revolted by, in Ubuntu, either switching DEs or even distros, and in Win8 by installing a third-party app that gave them their Start menu back and made the OS usable. In both cases the UIs were reverted in later versions back to what people wanted, due to popular demand.

DE devs should ask themselves some serious questions when thinking about designing a new DE: Is it easier to use than the current DE, with current hardware? Does it still let people do what they need or want to do? Does it help or hinder people to get work done on their computers? Is it helpful or does it just get in the way? Is their an actual "business" need for these changes? Then they should create a proof-of-concept of some sort, even if it's just mocked-up screen captures, and show them to the user community and ask for feedback (a RFC), and listen to what people say. They should do these things before writing a single line of code.
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asqwerth
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Re: XFCE and DE innovation

#9 Post by asqwerth »

entropyfoe wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:23 pm ...
And as he points out the key is "only giving users what they want"
And not taking away features people are already so used to.

GNOME has been taking away, reinstating, and removing again/rejigging/relocating features since Gnome3 was first released. See the ever-changing UI of Nautilus over the years, as an example. Where did the settings/preferences go? Up in the overhead-bar menu? Oh, now they've introduced a hamburger menu and the settings are there, yay! Where's the "add folder" function? The right-click context menu is kind of sparse now, don't you think? Oh, "add folder" is back in a button in hamburger, yay! Oops it's gone again? Nope, now it's in the dropdown menu in the filepath text field... etc etc.

And see the current removal of support for legacy systray notification icons and controls (yes, I know the Gnome devs have been wanting them gone for a long while). If you're happy not having them, good for you. But not everyone is happy that they are gone.

If you're lucky, you can still find a third party gnome shell extension that returns you the functionality you want. But how long will it last before it's broken again?

I had mentioned in another thread that I really liked how I got Gnome 3.30 set up in Fedora and an Arch-based distro, with certain extensions. But Arch has rolled onto Gnome 3.32 now, and the legacy systray support is broken. Now, Extension A might still work with program X, but not for Y any longer, while Extension B might be ok with Y and not X. I really like 3.30 (still have it for some time more in Fedora until I upgrade), but 3.32 has gone a little backwards IMO.

I still use Gnome in those distros, but the calm, commonsense approach of XFCE is appreciated.
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AK-47
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Re: XFCE and DE innovation

#10 Post by AK-47 »

Yes, because every day I think to myself, gee, I wish I had more innovation on my desktop. I'm tired of it being familiar and stable.

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