Random lockups - possibly only Intel CPUs

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boombaby
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Re: Random lockups - possibly only Intel CPUs

#11 Post by boombaby »


So, ChrisUK

Same problem, different hardware - it's the hardware? Can't agree with that logic.

However, before I rule out "hardware" I add that I have seen this "sudden hang" problem (on other hardware) when Memory chips fail.

My problem seemed to start after a software update (I THINK it was with LibreOffice) but no-one should take that as confirmed. However, since I have installed a bit of software, it could also be in something there, or interaction between them.

ChrisUK, I have also mentioned "icon-cache" but I don't know how to find that or check it on Linux. [Be nice to be able to maintain/manipulate (any) caches in the system (including clipboard) from Control Centre (say).]

Regards,
boombaby
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boombaby
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Re: Random lockups - possibly only Intel CPUs

#12 Post by boombaby »


Hello again, ChrisUK...

While sifting through issues with "icons" and "icon-cache" here in Linux I just recalled a problem that arose years ago on setting up Windows2000. From memory, it was one of the first uses of "shadowing" under icons on computer desktops. Now; I do not know if that problem happened universally (ie to everyone), or whether it occurred only to me on my type of old hardware...

When Windows2000 finished installing and fired up for the first time then the moment an icon was touched (ie the "shadowing" of the icon was "activated" in interaction) the system immediately FROZE SOLID. (I can't remember if this just required a reboot or reinstall.)

I also found out (the hard way) that, after startup, if I attempted to use the Control Panel to fix it, the system also froze (from the theme shadowing). However I discovered that if the very first thing I did after install was to use desktop access to properties to switch OFF "icon shadowing", then (bingo) the system never froze - EVER! It was a fully-functioning system.

Later I learned that the correct solution was to apply SP1 (the first Service Pack) immediately after O/S install. From then on I had a working system with or without icon/theme shadowing.

Point to be made? "Shadowing" of theme and icons created a situation where sudden, total freezing occurred. So I'm not ruling out software interactions here. In fact, in MX I have already modified my desktop theme, something I very rarely do because I know how it can create "instability" (in some unforeseen circumstances).

Regards,
boombaby
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ChrisUK
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Re: Random lockups - possibly only Intel CPUs

#13 Post by ChrisUK »

boombaby wrote: Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:11 am
So, ChrisUK

Same problem, different hardware - it's the hardware? Can't agree with that logic.

However, before I rule out "hardware" I add that I have seen this "sudden hang" problem (on other hardware) when Memory chips fail.

My problem seemed to start after a software update (I THINK it was with LibreOffice) but no-one should take that as confirmed. However, since I have installed a bit of software, it could also be in something there, or interaction between them.

ChrisUK, I have also mentioned "icon-cache" but I don't know how to find that or check it on Linux. [Be nice to be able to maintain/manipulate (any) caches in the system (including clipboard) from Control Centre (say).]

Regards,
boombaby
_
Yeah, I worded that wrong - I'll rephrase ;)

It seems to be software (intel-microcode or Kernel or gfx driver) that's incompatible with the Intel-based hardware of at least one of my Laptops. The lockups have only been since the Kernel and microcode Meltdown/Spectre patches. I have no lockups whatsoever with my AMD-based Laptop.

As I said earlier, I swapped the HDD and had no lockups... but I did earlier today. So I'm reasonably sure that CPU/RAM/HDD are all performing as they should - but I can't rule out the GFX card.

But I'm now thinking it's the patched 4.9 Debian Kernel, as I had nołockups with the patched 4.15 Debian Kernel. I'll only be sure if I go a week without lockups with the 4.15 Kernel
Chris

MX 18 MX 19 - Manjaro

boombaby
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Re: Random lockups - possibly only Intel CPUs

#14 Post by boombaby »


Hello, ChrisUK...


Over these freeze ups you/I have been having...

I've just had another one - and I was expecting it.



Can you answer a few questions please?


1.a.
What Browser/version are you using?

1.b.
Have you any Extensions loaded in?


2.
Do you have LibreOffice? What version?


3.
Do you have a Clipboard Manager of some sort?


FYI-1 (Clipboard)

In Control Centre (under "Personal" section) I have something called "GPaste". It has a lot of settings that can be modified.
At some point I may have loaded it (or another one) to work with the Clipboard - OR - it is standard (say with MATE desktop or something). Anyway I never got around to work on that (the Clipboard management). So it (GPaste) remained unused - BUT ACTIVE (unbeknown to me). I have just turned it OFF.



FYI-2 (Freeze condition)

At the moment of the last, recent freeze I had cut-and-pasted to LibreOffice from Vivaldi browser. I had actually double-pasted something (just text). In other words I didn't want the extra "double" so, in LibreOffice, I just clicked "Undo". Shortly thereafter - FREEZE.

Elsewhere in the forum I have said that I was considering a connection to LibreOffice and the Freezing. However, there is a possibility "freezing" has something to do with the Clipboard (cache), OR the Clipboard (cache) plus LibreOffice, OR just Clipboard usage/management generally.


Answering those questions briefly might prove useful to me, you and others. Checking (or keeping watch) for yourself might help you directly.


Regards,
boombaby
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ChrisUK
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Re: Random lockups - possibly only Intel CPUs

#15 Post by ChrisUK »

boombaby wrote: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:57 am
Hello, ChrisUK...


Over these freeze ups you/I have been having...

I've just had another one - and I was expecting it.



Can you answer a few questions please?


1.a.
What Browser/version are you using?

1.b.
Have you any Extensions loaded in?


2.
Do you have LibreOffice? What version?


3.
Do you have a Clipboard Manager of some sort?


FYI-1 (Clipboard)

In Control Centre (under "Personal" section) I have something called "GPaste". It has a lot of settings that can be modified.
At some point I may have loaded it (or another one) to work with the Clipboard - OR - it is standard (say with MATE desktop or something). Anyway I never got around to work on that (the Clipboard management). So it (GPaste) remained unused - BUT ACTIVE (unbeknown to me). I have just turned it OFF.



FYI-2 (Freeze condition)

At the moment of the last, recent freeze I had cut-and-pasted to LibreOffice from Vivaldi browser. I had actually double-pasted something (just text). In other words I didn't want the extra "double" so, in LibreOffice, I just clicked "Undo". Shortly thereafter - FREEZE.

Elsewhere in the forum I have said that I was considering a connection to LibreOffice and the Freezing. However, there is a possibility "freezing" has something to do with the Clipboard (cache), OR the Clipboard (cache) plus LibreOffice, OR just Clipboard usage/management generally.


Answering those questions briefly might prove useful to me, you and others. Checking (or keeping watch) for yourself might help you directly.


Regards,
boombaby
_
I may have fixed my lockups, but I won't explain until I'm 100% sure - I've some tests to run over a few days before I can be definite... if I'm wrong, explaining now will just confuse matters.
  • Web Browser wasn't always running for some of the lockups, so any link is unlikely - but for info; it's Firefox with only uBlock Origin extension.
  • Libre Office 6.0.1-1 - never used it
  • No Clipboard manager installed
  • All of my lockups happened when the machine had been idle... no activity whatsoever.
Like I said, I think I've solved my problem... I'll post the explanation when I'm positive. Unfortunately, even if it's solved, I'm 99.99% sure it won't help anyone else, as it was basically a foolish error by me - one that involved many convoluted steps to achieve.
Chris

MX 18 MX 19 - Manjaro

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ChrisUK
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Re: Random lockups - possibly only Intel CPUs

#16 Post by ChrisUK »

I should probably wait a few more days to be sure, but...

Right then, I've fixed the lockups... and it was all my fault... mostly. I'm not sure whether this will help others, as I have my own way of doing things, including installing and upgrading. I only ever install to one machine, the others are clones using Timeshift - I've done it this way for years, mostly there's nothing to do after the clone, except maybe editing my Brightness fix in /etc/pm/sleep.d if the GFX cards are different... but I digress ;)

This explanation is the best I can come up with so far, if anyone thinks it's not possible for lockups to be caused by this, please say so.

If I do a clean install (maybe an update caused a problem that I can't trace or fix, especially when it's a "race condition"), I backup all of my packages/settings/home etc using Aptik. I then do a clean install - install Aptik and restore all of my packages/settings/home etc.

I've found this to be pretty foolproof, except when a "fool" doesn't check before selecting options. One of the things Aptik can backup is Mounts, which I never select. One of my permanent mounts is a Swap File - so this is added to /etc/fstab
by me when setting the swap up. When I backed-up using Aptik, I checked "Mounts" as part of the backup... no idea why, I've never done it before, as I create the swap and edit fstab manually after each new install. Aptik restored my swap settings to fstab, but I hadn't created my swapfile. So the system thought that it had a swapfile, but it didn't. I got distracted by the lockups and completely forgot that I hadn't set up the swap file (although I remembered on the other AMD box).

I'd welcome confirmation from someone who knows more about how the system works, but judging by the fact I've had no lockups since setting up the swap file, I think the lack of swap and fstab saying there was a swap was the cause... I don't think the lack of a swap (I've enough RAM) would have caused the lockups on it's own.

Anyway, it appears to be fixed.
Chris

MX 18 MX 19 - Manjaro

boombaby
Posts: 59
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Re: Random lockups - possibly only Intel CPUs

#17 Post by boombaby »


Hello, ChrisUK, et al...

I mentioned a day or so ago that my "freeze" problem might have come from a Clipboard manager. I had discovered that it had been turned ON (without my knowledge, probably at installation) so I turned it OFF. The day after I did that I had two freezes in rapid succession. For the time being I have ruled it out as the source of problems, although I still remain concerned about Clipboard and caches.

Also, I have mentioned elsewhere that I thought my "freeze" problem might be coming from Libreoffice (after an update). So after confirming the Clipboard manager was not the problem I removed Libreoffice 6.1.x (completely, as best as I could). Later, I installed a previous version 6.0.x (which was probably what I had been using before update).

While I have been using my system in exactly the same manner as before (ie when freezing was occurring) I have had no freezes since changeover. I still believe this result needs further testing (possibly for a further week or two) but I am more hopeful about it now.

Regards,
boombaby
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boombaby
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Re: Random lockups - possibly only Intel CPUs

#18 Post by boombaby »


Hello, Richard...

You asked for this info in thread... http://www.mxlinux.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 29#p459539
...but the relevance (to the system freezing) is really herein.

As you requested, I used inxi -Fxzdlop but trimmed the output to relevant hardware, to limit the exposed details.
System:
Host: non Kernel: 4.15.0-1-amd64 x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 6.3.0
Desktop: MATE 1.16.1 Distro: MX-17.1_x64 Horizon March 14, 2018
Machine:
Type: Laptop System: Hewlett-Packard product: HP Pavilion Notebook
v: Type1ProductConfigId serial: <filter>
Mobo: Hewlett-Packard model: 8093 v: 89.11 serial: <filter> UEFI: Insyde
v: F.03 date: 03/31/2015
Battery:
ID-1: BAT0 charge: 32.2 Wh condition: 32.2/32.2 Wh (100%)
model: Hewlett-Packard Primary status: Full
CPU:
Topology: Dual Core model: Intel Core i5-5200U bits: 64 type: MT MCP
arch: Broadwell rev: 4 L2 cache: 3072 KiB
flags: lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx bogomips: 17559
Speed: 800 MHz min/max: 500/2700 MHz Core speeds (MHz): 1: 798 2: 798
3: 798 4: 798
Graphics:
Card-1: Intel HD Graphics 5500 driver: i915 v: kernel bus ID: 00:02.0
Display: x11 server: X.Org 1.19.2 driver: modesetting unloaded: fbdev,vesa
resolution: 1920x1080~60Hz
OpenGL: renderer: Mesa DRI Intel HD Graphics 5500 (Broadwell GT2)
v: 4.5 Mesa 13.0.6 direct render: Yes

...

Sensors:
System Temperatures: cpu: 33.0 C mobo: N/A
Fan Speeds (RPM): N/A
Info:
Processes: 202 Uptime: 12h 46m Memory: 7.72 GiB used: 1.41 GiB (18.2%)
Init: SysVinit runlevel: 5 Compilers: gcc: 6.3.0 Shell: bash v: 4.4.12
inxi: 3.0.10
Regards,
boombaby
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dolphin_oracle
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Re: Random lockups - possibly only Intel CPUs

#19 Post by dolphin_oracle »

from the other thread:
...shows that I am using the i915 driver

Why is my system using the Intel driver when this driver "usage is discouraged on modern equip"? [ie HP Pavillion]
there are multiple parts to the driver stack.

i915 is the kernel level driver that is in use by your hardware.

"intel" and "modesetting" are the Xorg drivers which sit on top of that.

Note in your inxi output above that Xorg driver is "modesetting" and not intel. this is what's intended by the current debian stretch, but it is possible to force use of the older "intel" driver using mx-tweak (among other ways). I honestly don't know which is better for your broadwell hardware, but the change is easily reversible. you might give the intel driver a try in the event your system freezes return.
http://www.youtube.com/runwiththedolphin
lenovo ThinkPad X1 Extreme Gen 4 - MX-23
FYI: mx "test" repo is not the same thing as debian testing repo.

boombaby
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:41 am

Re: Random lockups - possibly only Intel CPUs

#20 Post by boombaby »


Hello, Any...


Report: System "freeze-up" happened again yesterday. (Twice). So the libreoffice downgrade was no help.


Next two steps for me would be:

1.
Switch to the Intel driver (I discovered in one of the logs that although installed, it may not be operational - but I don't know, technically, how it all fits together.)

2.
Then (or even concurrently) look at the mouse driver because my system is showing use of a "Logitech" driver even though my mouse is HP (the laptop is HP too). I seem to recall changing the mouse twice recently, so that could account for the discrepancy. (I cannot be sure - don't know how it works behind the scenes. It seems Logitech might be some Standard?)


That last change would be a final shot before total re-install. So I came back here to cease ops in this thread and create a new one to discuss all that. However, I discovered dolphin_oracle had replied.


Hello, dolphin_oracle...


After your useful info (previous post), I feel it is best to try the Intel swing you mentioned first because this thread is marked as "Intel" related.

Now; I remember seeing that GUI tool for switching the driver somewhere. Can't remember where; can't find it now.

A search on Internet left me with this method... https://mxlinux.org/wiki/hardware/intel-video-driver

...which I have already applied. No problems currently. I will let you know longer-term outcome.

(Thanks for that advice. Coincidentally, prior to me returning to post and while "considering" some of my log file info, and using some CLI to investigate "stuff", I found and considered matters - like you explained. You just confirmed my fuzzy "belief" of what I had been looking at, and convinced me to give it a try. Great.)


Regards,
boombaby
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