REQUEST ... Adjustment to Installer for foreign Keyboards  [Solved]

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Jerry3904
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Re: REQUEST ... Adjustment to Installer for foreign Keyboards

#11 Post by Jerry3904 »

It wasn't even open to discussion
Of course it was, come on. There was nothing on the table to discuss so we explained how it works. We also noted that most of our users have had no problems with it so it hasn't qualified as an "issue."

If you have a concrete and positive suggestion about improving the current method, make it (in a few words, please) so we can discuss it.
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GuiGuy
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Change the live boot initial screen?

#12 Post by GuiGuy »

There is nothing wrong with the installer when the correct location has been selected.
But the live DVD/USB would be better if, when booted, it immediately forced the user to choose his location instead of requiring
a keypress .
Not sure what is the best way to present this choice without using any language: how do other distros do it?

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dolphin_oracle
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Re: REQUEST ... Adjustment to Installer for foreign Keyboards

#13 Post by dolphin_oracle »

We just spent a lot of time on the next version of our installer moving the keyboard selection to the front of the installer.

The one thing to remember about the antiX project is that its amazing live setup features, and it would be silly of us not to point out existing solutions when a user has an issue as the OP did with their install. Without those live features, and the mx tool set, we are just another Debian XFCE. We are justifiably proud of the live setup. And since the our installer installs a "running live system", it makes a lot of sense to set that stuff up before installing.

Could some of that be even easier to set up. Probably. Its why we moved the keyboard setup in the next version.

The live features make all that you wanted (language, keyboard, etc...) possible before the install.
http://www.youtube.com/runwiththedolphin
lenovo ThinkPad X1 Extreme Gen 4 - MX-23
FYI: mx "test" repo is not the same thing as debian testing repo.

linwinux

Re: REQUEST ... Adjustment to Installer for foreign Keyboards

#14 Post by linwinux »

Well, I suppose it's just a matter of preference then? Firstly, I didn't have a problem with the selection at all. Since English & German are both native to me, it didn't make a difference to me which of the two languages I would be dealing with. And nobody, or at least not me, is taking anything away from the MX Toolset. Certainly that's something to be very proud of. BUT ... those people who are already familiar with MX Linux or Antix, are more than likely already aware of those features. My point of view, which I thought I made clear, was strictly from the new user / Windows switcher / first time installer ... point of view. For those people, would it not make more sense to have the language feature right up there from the get-go?
How would that diminish the MX Toolset?
Of course it was, come on. There was nothing on the table to discuss so we explained how it works.
I would think that any thread which begins with ... REQUEST ... would make it obvious that that word invites a discussion.

In the end I suppose it all comes down to current perception of an OS as well as the "happiness factor" of those who are and have been using that OS already. My point of view is different and it's derived from the thinking of (for lacker of better words) ... OMG, MX Linux is so friggen out of this World wonderful, how can I get everyone else who's never had Linux before, especially inexperienced or people with older hardware, to use it?
To answer that question, everything on the screen would have to be kept as simple and automatic as possible.

Probably around 98% of the world didn't give a hoot about computing until Mac & Windows were there, showing everyone how things can be done with pretty little symbolic pictures and clickable points everywhere on the screen. I remember the first office suite that I used in the early 90s, and thinking instantly what a massive improvement that was over DOS based word perfect. Heck, even DEC and other companies followed suit by creating their own DEC Windows, Alpha, etc. Operating Systems. It's all about point n click prettiness ... combined with whatever work needs to be done, after the eyeballs have already been drawn in. That's how it works for most new or first time users anyway. So if you can get peoples eyes to light up because of how cool things look, followed by blowing people away by the easy partially automated installation process ... then the battle to win people over has already been mostly won. The remainder then simply becomes a matter of personal preference ... but at least the pot of general interest first been thoroughly stirred. That's a good thing !!!

I create my own individual help files anyway, so in the long run I suppose it doesn't matter what you do with the installation process as it first appears on the screen. I provide people with two different types of setups. Mint XFCE for newer machines with decent hardware (dual-core and better processors with 4 GB min. RAM), and MX Linux for older machines with 32bit or single core 64bit processors. The language thing with MX Linux only bothered me way after the fact, once I realized that there's a lot of translation left to do, even after I already changed the language settings. What's the point of changing those settings ... if they're not seamlessly & systemwide available afterwards? That's definitely an unexpected flaw, for which I offer my assistance if needed.
Sorry if I'm writing too much for some people. I believe in thoroughness and I don't like for things to be misunderstood.
PEACE

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dolphin_oracle
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Re: REQUEST ... Adjustment to Installer for foreign Keyboards

#15 Post by dolphin_oracle »

Its all good dude!
http://www.youtube.com/runwiththedolphin
lenovo ThinkPad X1 Extreme Gen 4 - MX-23
FYI: mx "test" repo is not the same thing as debian testing repo.

linwinux

Re: REQUEST ... Adjustment to Installer for foreign Keyboards

#16 Post by linwinux »

Back again, to report on the language thingie ... ;)
Now mind you, as before I'm reporting from an inexperienced or first time user of Linux, point of view ...

I installed MX Linux 17.1 from USB image. As is fairly normal (methinks), my eyes are automatically drawn to the middle of the screen, waiting to see what will appear. After a few seconds the MX Linus screen appeared, with a large text block near the top, letting me be aware of the different options for continuing. It never even dawned on me to look beyond that. Screen appears ... here are your options ... have a nice day ... right in your face. :happy:
And that's exactly why it never even dawned on me to look at the bottom of the screen for language options.
No biggie. But that's why I think that the languages should be in your face right from the get-go.
Presumably most noobs and first time Linux users will react just as I did the very first time ...
... followed by ending up with a later language selection that won't translate everything properly, such as passwords, Firefox, Thunderbird, Keepassx, etc.

Out of curiosity, and just for a moment try to pretend that you're not a regular user or familiar with Linux. How would you feel if you came from Spain, France, Germany, or some other Country, installed MX Linux as I did (but without the luxury of knowing the English language fluently), only to end up with a system that's a mish mash of two different languages? Would this instill happiness & confidence in you, or would you be left scratching your head, wondering what kind of OS only offers half-baked language translations? How confident would you feel about working with such an OS, along with your limited English skills? Also keep in mind that the noob or first time user isn't installing MX Linux 1, 2, or 3. They're seeing 17.1 on the screen which would make most people believe that that's about as advanced as one can possibly hope for, right?
Anyway, just giving someone something to think about ... ;)
PEACE

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fehlix
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Re: REQUEST ... Adjustment to Installer for foreign Keyboards

#17 Post by fehlix »

Moin.
I do think you raised a point. Albeit you could have just squeezed it to an one-liner request - but never mind. Perhaps alternative approach to convince dev-team might be to actually show how this could be achieved. As you said you do have years of experience with linux why not dive into the issue and propose a prototype. Remember you do have take into consideration not only the bios-related mx-boot menu but also the uefi-related one. I‘m sure as the dev team would much appreciate for showing them a migration path / prototype to a potentially increased usability of bios/uefi-mx-menu.
If you want to go this route I might to give you a helping hand.
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Richard
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Re: REQUEST ... Adjustment to Installer for foreign Keyboards

#18 Post by Richard »

Fresh eyes do see things diferently. Thank you for your observations.
I sometimes set up machines in Spanish, but I already know what I want.

After installing and reinstalling I understand the installer much better; although,
I just recently learned from reading in the forum, that the F8 Save key
on the startup screen is to actually save those things you have to reset otherwise,
at each boot. We often see but don't really read when we feel we know the answer,
since nothing bad ever happened from using it or not using it.

Problem remains, "How do we make people actually read what shows on the screen?"
I know because I'm one of them. Or better still, "How to design the screen so it can't
be ignored?"

That is a laudable goal to make the installation screens, idiot newbie user proof.
One of the first things I was told about Linux, by a computer science professor in the VeLUG,
a long time ago, was to read everything that shows on the screen before pressing Enter.
I'm sure I could have saved many a reinstall after trying out some new option or trick
that I read about, if I had kept that advice in mind.

I know the developers are considering changes to the installer; however, IMHO it is already
one of the best installers I have used in 20 years of learning and using Linux. Doesn't mean
it couldn't be better, just means that the developers and many of us users are accustomed
to it's idiosyncrasies and don't really see some things as a problem because we know the
answer from having run the installer repeatedly. And some of us are still learning.

We are a relatively small, active, forward-thinking distro. Our native language forums are small.
Perhaps this is one of the reasons. :) We welcome your participation.
Thinkpad T430 & Dell Latitude E7450, both with MX-21.3.1
kernal 5.10.0-26-amd64 x86_64; Xfce-4.18.0; 8 GB RAM
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MX<3
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Re: REQUEST ... Adjustment to Installer for foreign Keyboards

#19 Post by MX<3 »

Totally agree with this. I've installed MX four times now, MX16 and MX17.1 and I didn't know about the time-zone and language options, until I'd installed twice already.
One of these misses leading to a time-skew nightmare, with my Windows 7 install. :frustrated:

Now... making the bottom options larger. Changing the colours, to draw the eye. Moving them to the top-centre of the screen. A combination of these, would be all it takes.

Also... I had to wait for the ISO disc to fully boot, which took a while, because I didn't notice that there was a countdown happening while I was looking at the bottom options.
Removing this countdown, would be nice too. Its not really needed.

Apart from that, the Help option and info for the bottom choices is awsomely made! And easy to use. Maybe add an; "Is Windows installed on this machine?" question. With a choice to select (After language selection of course). And a choice of yes will select Hardware clock=Local. Maybe with an "Is your Bios clock time correct? (Don't worry if you don't understand the question. Ignore it if so.)" caveat.
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dolphin_oracle
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Re: REQUEST ... Adjustment to Installer for foreign Keyboards

#20 Post by dolphin_oracle »

Just to point out, we did more than consider the keyboard changes...we had already changed it before the OP made his original post, which reinforces the decision to move the keyboard selection. The changes just haven't made it to the users yet because we are waiting for...new translations!

So there you go.

BTW, please keep in mind that antiX, and by extension MX, are perfectly happy running from a live-USB full time. Which is a primary reason why we don't throw up windows and questions everytime we boot live Media. Unlike some other big-name linux distros, you can do much much more with antiX/MX live media than simply install the OS to a hard drive.

So much so that I don't bother installing antiX anymore, I just run off the live-USB full time. I even did a 2 hour linux live stream Saturday nite running off the antiX live stick! The hosts were suitably impressed when they asked if I had distro-hopped...nope, just me over hear running the antiX live system!

It does make us different from the big-boys. Different is good.

And I'm not poo-pooing any comments made in this thread. Its all food for thought. Thanks!
http://www.youtube.com/runwiththedolphin
lenovo ThinkPad X1 Extreme Gen 4 - MX-23
FYI: mx "test" repo is not the same thing as debian testing repo.

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