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Xfce4 developer on Xfce4.14: Dedoimedo interview

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polaca57
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Re: Xfce4 developer on Xfce4.14: Dedoimedo interview

#21 Post by polaca57 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:49 pm

Jerry3904 wrote:Come on, we need to take it easy here.
What do you mean by that?
Touchy subject? Something it's not desirable to talk about? Taboo topic?

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Re: Xfce4 developer on Xfce4.14: Dedoimedo interview

#22 Post by skidoo » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:14 am

.
so today I watched a troll barge into a roomfulla xfce fanbois and...
polaca57 wrote:The price you will have to pay is adopt systemd and be assimilated. And I am not joking.
[. . .]
Do we know what really happened to Ian Murdock? We don't.
[. . .]
Touchy subject? Something it's not desirable to talk about? Taboo topic?

(another topic)
Keeping status quo for 30 years is retarded. "it's Arch, it's not for newbies" is their mantra.
[. . .]
No installer? WTF is wrong with you? 30 years! no change. Retards!
...and because I happen to share polaca57's worries(?), I'll put some substantive "meat on them thar bones".
What can the Linux community do together to make Linux, well, better?
S: Stop reinventing the wheel for the sake of being different. Review and accept patches, or offer
suggestions to improve the patches. Check out new releases of different desktop environments, or even Windows and Mac
OS to see if there's new innovations you haven't considered before. Finally, improved upstream and downstream cooperation
would lead to a better experience for developers, maintainers, and users.
That statement is both hypocritical and specious.
specious https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/specious

1)
obsolete. (syn) showy: "making an attractive show")
2) having deceptive attraction or allure
3) having a false look of truth or genuineness (sophistic reasoning: plausible but fallacious)
Package: xfce4-panel (4.12.1-2)
panel for Xfce4 desktop environment
"This is the panel provided by the Xfce4 desktop project. If you want a multi-functional panel that can even handle plugins and the like, xfce4-panel might be worth a try."
^---depends on exo-utils + LOTS of other deps ----v
Package: libexo-1-0 (0.10.7-1)
"libexo is a library for Xfce that contains a bunch of additional widgets and a framework for editable toolbars (an improved version of the framework present in GNOME), light-weight session management support, functions to automatically synchronize object properties (based on GObject Binding Properties) and several miscellaneous utility and helper functions for application developers.
While Xfce ships with quite a few libraries that are primarily targeted at desktop development, libexo is targeted at application development, with a focus on applications for Xfce."
admittedly (in their own words) reinventing the wheel, rather than contributing back upstream
(Ah, but not just for the sake of being "different", right? And, finding changes merged with upstream RedTeamBlue has proven impossible, right?)



Package xfce4-dict ( Dictionary plugin for Xfce4 panel )
reinventing the wheel (and, in a non-portable way). Full stop.



Package: xfce4-notifyd (0.3.4-1)
simple, visually-appealing notification daemon for Xfce
"Xfce4-notifyd is a simple, visually-appealing notification daemon for Xfce that implements the Freedesktop.org Desktop Notifications Specification."
Features:
* Themable using the GTK+ theming mechanism
* Visually appealing: rounded corners, shaped windows
* Supports transparency and fade effects
------------- REINVENTS THE WHEEL _AND_ DRAGS IN DEPENDENCIES: WAYLAND CLIENT, GTK3...
("sour grapes" with me b/c of its hard dependency on wayland-client, hence non-portability)



Package: xfce4-power-manager (1.4.4-4) https://packages.debian.org/stretch/xfce4-power-manager
^---v dependency
libdbus-1-3
^---v dependency
libsystemd0 (>= 209)
reinvents the wheel, and does so in a RedTeamBlue non-portable way



Package: xfce4-appfinder (4.12.0-2) https://packages.debian.org/stretch/xfce4-appfinder]
Application finder for the Xfce4 Desktop Environment
"This is an application finder for the Xfce4 Desktop Environment. It will search for installed applications on your system."
^-----v REINVENTS (A NON-PORTABLE IMPLEMENTATION OF) THE WHEEL
libgarcon + libxfce4util7 + libxfce4ui-1-0 + libxfconf-0-2
reinvents the wheel (and does so in a non-portable way)
Although appfinder predates WhiskerMenu, the non-hypocritical path would have been (by now) to deprecate appfinder, in favor of WhiskerMenu.




Package: xfce4-clipman (2:1.4.1-1) https://packages.debian.org/stretch/xfce4-clipman
clipboard history utility
"Clipman enables you to store and recall X selections, as well as GTK+ clipboard content. You can also define actions to be triggered by selecting some text pattern.
This package uses Xfce libraries but can be used without the Xfce panel and only requires a system tray (notification area)."
reinvents the wheel, and does so in a non-portable RedTeamBlue -ish way
^---v
libgtk-3-0 (>= 3.19.12) + libxfce4ui-2-0 + libxfce4util7 + libxfconf-0-2
could (should) be deprecated in favor of {parcelite, clipit, CopyQ} feature-superior alternatives

Package: xfce4-goodies https://packages.debian.org/stretch/xfce4-goodies
enhancements for the Xfce4 Desktop Environment
The "Goodies for Xfce" project includes additional software and artwork that are related to the Xfce desktop, but not part of the official release.
This package will install the following Xfce4 related plugins:

* Extra artwork (xfce4-artwork)
* Battery levels monitor (xfce4-battery-plugin)
* Clipboard history (xfce4-clipman-plugin)
* CPU frequency management plugin (xfce4-cpufreq-plugin)
* CPU utilisation graphs (xfce4-cpugraph-plugin)
* Date and time plugin (xfce4-datetime-plugin)
* Disk performance display (xfce4-diskperf-plugin)
* Filesystem monitor (xfce4-fsguard-plugin)
* Generic monitor, for displaying any command result (xfce4-genmon-plugin)
* Mail watcher (xfce4-mailwatch-plugin)
* Mount plugin (xfce4-mount-plugin)
* Network load monitor (xfce4-netload-plugin)
* Notes plugin (xfce4-notes-plugin)
* Quick access to bookmarked folders, recent documents and removable
media (xfce4-places-plugin)
* Sensors plugin, frontend to lm-sensors (xfce4-sensors-plugin)
* Smartbookmarks plugin (xfce4-smartbookmark-plugin)
* System load monitor (xfce4-systemload-plugin)
* Timer plugin (xfce4-timer-plugin)
* Command line with history (xfce4-verve-plugin)
* Wireless lan monitor (xfce4-wavelan-plugin)
* Weather monitor (xfce4-weather-plugin)
* Keyboard configuration (xfce4-xkb-plugin)
* Archive management for Thunar (thunar-archive-plugin)
* Media tags editor for Thunar (thunar-media-tags-plugin)
* Alternate menu plugin (xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin)

It'll install some standalone applications too:

* Tiny text editor (mousepad)
* Images viewer (ristretto)
* CD/DVD burner (xfburn)
* Frontend to dictionnaries (xfce4-dict)
* Notification daemon (xfce4-notifyd) ==================== not really "standalone", considering the deps
* Tool to take screenshots (xfce4-screenshooter) ========= yes, standalone
* Task manager (xfce4-taskmanager)
* Terminal emulator (xfce4-terminal) ========= yes, dependencies are minimal enough to call it a "standalone"

Some packages are only suggested because they bring too much dependencies, but you may find them interesting:

* Cellular modem plugin (xfce4-cellmodem-plugin)
* Search plugin, frontend to locate (xfce4-linelight-plugin)
* DBus messaging plugin (xfce4-messenger-plugin)
* Another commandline plugin (xfce4-minicmd-plugin)
* Frontends to MPD (xfce4-mpc-plugin, xfmpc)
* Radio plugin (xfce4-radio-plugin))
* Fast-user switching plugin (xfswitch-plugin)
* ThinkPads HDAPS plugin (xfce4-hdaps)
* GIO/GVfs frontend to manage connections to remote filesystems (gigolo)
* Media player (parole)
* Power Manager (xfce4-power-manager)

This is a metapackage to ease upgrades, installations, and provide a consistent upgrade path from previous versions. It can safely be removed with no ill effects.
Summary points:
1) Other than xfce4-screenshooter and xfce4-terminal, the xfce project is not developing with an eye to, consideration toward, the overall community.

2) By continuing to pander feature-limited "pet" (in-house, umbrella) projects like midori, mousepad, the xfce project is disservicing end users.

3) Within several of its components, the xfce project (or debian-packaging) has already embraced hard dependencies on RedTeamBlue's systemd and wayland.
It's reasonable to expect that this trend will continue.

4) as of v4.8, XFCE was my favorite "desktop environment". XFCE v4.10 felt like "meh, break/fix, chasing GTK3"... and v4.12 now just stands as "lesser of the evils, at the moment".

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asqwerth
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Re: Xfce4 developer on Xfce4.14: Dedoimedo interview

#23 Post by asqwerth » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:12 am

skidoo, I'm not technical enough to comment on the xfce4/Red Hat/systemd portions of your post, but I'm puzzled why you brought in the artix thread and mentioned "xfce fanbois".

1. artix comes pre-installed with i3 or lxqt. No XFCE.
2. artix is runs openrc as init manager and they broke away from Arch specifically because of systemd, so should in fact have been an admirable distro in the eyes of polaca57.
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Jerry3904
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Re: Xfce4 developer on Xfce4.14: Dedoimedo interview

#24 Post by Jerry3904 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:06 am

What puzzles me about this discussion is simply this: if people don't like Xfce, they shouldn't use it--end of story. No need to go on and on about it, just pick something else.

It's not that hard to grasp.
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Re: Xfce4 developer on Xfce4.14: Dedoimedo interview

#25 Post by asqwerth » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:07 am

I'm perfectly ok with xfce 4.12 but to be fair to all the posters, only time will tell just how tightly bound to systemd xfce 4.14 is.

I can understand to some extent skidoo and polaca's concerns, since there are Red Hat people involved with XFCE.

However, my understanding is that xfce is pretty modular so as long as it remains that way, then even if certain items were indeed systemd-linked, it is possible they could be replaced easily or just not used.

MX does not use every package in xfce-goodies, for instance mousepad or ristretto, so it is still up to a distro to pick and choose components from XFCE it will use. Hopefully it remains that way.

That's why I said let's wait and see.
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Re: Xfce4 developer on Xfce4.14: Dedoimedo interview

#26 Post by richb » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:21 am

All I can say is I like xfce and the panel addons and goodies. They work and give me information I need. Their genesis and whether they re-invent they wheel is immaterial to me as long as they are functional and do what I need. Simplistic and naive, perhaps. But presented with an environment that works and works well stops me from looking for ulterior motives.
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Re: Xfce4 developer on Xfce4.14: Dedoimedo interview

#27 Post by SwampRabbit » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:38 am

uncle mark wrote: I guess I'm going to have to get some more tinfoil.
Everyone knows tin is too thin to protect you with the technology they have now. You gotta step up to the cast iron pot.

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Re: Xfce4 developer on Xfce4.14: Dedoimedo interview

#28 Post by asqwerth » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:00 am

My view is that the mere fact that they are taking their own sweet time to finish version 4.14, is reason to be optimistic.

If it was going to be wholesale gnomification and systemd all the way, surely it would have been out sooner?

At least, that's my opinion.
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polaca57
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Re: Xfce4 developer on Xfce4.14: Dedoimedo interview

#29 Post by polaca57 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:58 pm

skidoo wrote:.
so today I watched a troll barge into a roomfulla xfce fanbois and...
You are wrong on both "observations" :happy:

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Re: Xfce4 developer on Xfce4.14: Dedoimedo interview

#30 Post by Stevo » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:47 pm

Forget about arguing logically with a conspiracy theorist. Any logical argument against the conspiracy is only further evidence for it.

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