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systemd according to Luke Smith

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KoO
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systemd according to Luke Smith

#1

Post by KoO » Fri May 10, 2019 10:55 pm

This is Luke Smith on one of he's bush walk rants..
I must say that I have been using Debian buster for a couple of months now which is systemd and I have a not one problem with it, everyone has a different opinion but each to their own..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IglXPVJ98t0

Also here is a response form Distrotube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt815yGk8Ho
Last edited by KoO on Sat May 11, 2019 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Head_on_a_Stick
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Re: systemd according to Luke Smith

#2

Post by Head_on_a_Stick » Sat May 11, 2019 6:30 am

What an excellent video, thanks for posting.

I do agree with most of what he is saying but I do have specific concerns about systemd in respect of the size of the codebase and the memory usage.

Here's the (cropped) ps_mem output for my Debian buster system with systemd as PID1:

Code: Select all

 Private  +   Shared  =  RAM used       Program
  1.2 MiB + 488.5 KiB =   1.7 MiB       systemd-logind
  1.3 MiB + 482.5 KiB =   1.8 MiB       systemd-timesyncd
  2.1 MiB + 153.5 KiB =   2.2 MiB       systemd-udevd
  4.7 MiB + 464.5 KiB =   5.1 MiB       systemd-journald
  4.5 MiB +   3.6 MiB =   8.1 MiB       systemd (3)
And here are the same functions being run in my Alpine Linux system using OpenRC:

Code: Select all

 Private  +   Shared  =  RAM used       Program
 84.0 KiB +  35.5 KiB = 119.5 KiB       openrc-init
 44.0 KiB + 128.5 KiB = 172.5 KiB       syslogd
116.0 KiB + 106.5 KiB = 222.5 KiB       login
172.0 KiB + 100.0 KiB = 272.0 KiB       supervise-daemon (2)
288.0 KiB +  23.5 KiB = 311.5 KiB       chronyd
472.0 KiB + 975.0 KiB =   1.4 MiB       udevd (2)
That's quite a saving :-)

And for the actual binaries we have:

Code: Select all

shinken:~$ ls -lh /lib/systemd/systemd
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1.5M Apr  8 11:59 /lib/systemd/systemd
shinken:~$ ls -lh /mnt/alpine/sbin/openrc-init                                                     
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 14K Mar 10 10:59 /mnt/alpine/sbin/openrc-init
shinken:~$
So systemd has a significantly larger attack surface as well.

Oh, and I run Alpine without PulseAudio...

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Re: systemd according to Luke Smith

#3

Post by JayM » Sat May 11, 2019 8:32 am

I stopped watching when he started dissing "boomers" (baby boomers) for being resistant to any and all changes since I am one. (A boomer, not a change.(Also, Gnome is pronounced "nome", not "ganome", The "g" is silent, like the "l" is in luser. :smile:) (Kids these days! Get off my lawn! :supercool: )

Here's an even better (IMHO) albiet more technical video about systemd by Benno Rice, a FreeBSD dev: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo
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Re: systemd according to Luke Smith

#4

Post by bobbee » Sat May 11, 2019 8:57 am

He also said that the other init systems were good too.

He just doesn't have anything really for or against it.

Maybe this thread kind of illustrates what he was talking about. As soon as somebody says anything not negative about systemd. People advocating for will take that as an endorsement as and agenda to bring everyone into the borg hive. Which systemd has taken over on allot of distros. So much so that it is becoming the only option for many.

Maybe there is also some justified dislike for systemd too.

I have my reasons for not wanting systemd. And I for sure would not like all packages to be developed only for systemd. Which allot cater to the ubunto userbase.
I would rather have the init be a background process and have the aps developed where they could run without int integration. Allowing for more choice.

Regardless, people should be able to like or not like whatever they want.

I do watch Luke Smith sometimes. It is kinda like hanging out.
Last edited by bobbee on Sat May 11, 2019 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: systemd according to Luke Smith

#5

Post by AK-47 » Sat May 11, 2019 9:42 am

I can understand the dislike for systemd in a way, but alas it has a rubbish name. The name "systemd" suggests to me it's one daemon and one binary that tries to do everything, which as almost everyone knows (and Microsoft found out the hard way) is not such a good idea after all. I bet if it was called the "Linux System Layer" or something people wouldn't have been so negative. Welcome to the wonderful world of marketing.
At least it isn't anything like svchost.exe and hopefully will never end up that way.
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Adrian
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Re: systemd according to Luke Smith

#6

Post by Adrian » Sat May 11, 2019 10:02 am

The name "systemd" suggests to me it's one daemon and one binary that tries to do everything
it's not only the name, they do try to do everything.

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Re: systemd according to Luke Smith

#7

Post by kc1di » Sat May 11, 2019 10:14 am

I think the problem with systemd is that it tries to be everything instead of just a boot manager. It gets it's fingers into every part of the system. But on the Distros I have tried that use it I have had no real problems from an ops view. But It does break the code of do one thing and do it well. JMHO.

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Re: systemd according to Luke Smith

#8

Post by richb » Sat May 11, 2019 10:42 am

The Benno Rice video that JayM posted (post #3) is very informative. If you have not, I suggest you watch it. It gave me a better understanding of systemd from what appears to be an informed and neutral source. What I got out of it is that it s not all that bad as some would have you believe and provides advantages.

I have booted MX to it on occasion with no ill affects. I am running it now for an extended trial period and I doubt that any problems will arise. I really do not care what init system I use as long as it works.
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Re: systemd according to Luke Smith

#9

Post by Head_on_a_Stick » Sat May 11, 2019 10:49 am

JayM wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 8:32 am
Gnome is pronounced "nome", not "ganome", The "g" is silent
I think Luke's pronunciation is actually correct (for the desktop at least).
kc1di wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:14 am
I think the problem with systemd is that it tries to be everything instead of just a boot manager
You don't have to use any of the extra features at all, they are all optional.

If you find something you don't like then you can just disable it or use

Code: Select all

# systemctl mask nasty.service
It will then not be started at all, ever.

And Debian already splits out some of the functionality, for example machinectl(1) is part of the systemd-container package.
Adrian wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:02 am
they do try to do everything
I really like having a set of unified userspace tools all created and maintained by the same team, it reminds me of true UNIX systems :-)

For me systemd is a bit like cheesecake: I know it's bad for me but it tastes so good...

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Re: systemd according to Luke Smith

#10

Post by manyroads » Sat May 11, 2019 11:22 am

richb wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:42 am
The Benno Rice video that JayM posted (post #3) is very informative. If you have not, I suggest you watch it. It gave me a better understanding of systemd from what appears to be an informed and neutral source. What I got out of it is that it s not all that bad as some would have you believe and provides advantages.

I have booted MX to it on occasion with no ill affects. I am running it now for an extended trial period and I doubt that any problems will arise. I really do not care what init system I use as long as it works.
I used systemd for a good long time on manjaro (arch-base). If things work well, they are just fine. However, when you get in trouble (and many people here know, I can get there a lot) debugging and fixing can be a horror show (not always... but enough such that it is worth avoiding). I think that point speaks to Torvald's issues with systemd.
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