Is elogind solution for MX systemd question? [OK]

[rasat]

The current release version of Devuan is ASCII, based on stretch, but their development branches are beowulf & ceres, which are based on buster & sid.
I was running beowulf briefly and it works very well indeed, they have now removed libsystemd0 and the Debian developers have adopted their version of elogind:
https://packages.debian.org/buster/elogind

Thank you Head_on_a_Stick, I think you gave a good solution. To confirm what you wrote, I installed Devuan ASCII (stretch). Installed Gnome using elogind, and works very well. Both Xfce (sysV) and Gnome (systemd) in same install. Next, upgrade to Beawulf (buster) which upgraded smoothly, and works well.

Code: Select all

amurt@rasatPC:~$ dpkg -S /sbin/init
sysvinit-core: /sbin/init

Is elogind the solution by learning from Devuan?? MX will remain as created in first place without becoming a systemd only.

[Head_on_a_Stick]

The elogind package allows for removal of libsystemd0 but antiX solved that "problem" quite a while ago, IIUC.

[timkb4cq]

If MX stays sysvinit (my preference) it will certainly use elogind.
If it goes systemd it will not.

The problem, as I understand it, is that without the no longer developed systemd-shim it's not possible to be able to boot into either one as we can now since elogind & systemd conflict.

There is also the issue of third party software releases for debian buster omitting init files since they assume systemd will be present. This is a manageable issue for most programs - but if I'm not mistaken (and I certainly could be) things like snapd would require rewriting rather large parts of the program to make it work without systemd.

[rasat]

The problem, as I understand it, is that without the no longer developed systemd-shim it's not possible to be able to boot into either one as we can now since elogind & systemd conflict.

As I mentioned in OP, I did the test with Xfce and Gnome, and works well with elogind as well as other systemd required apps... elogind seem to replace systemd-shim. What though arises the question by using elogind, can Debian repo be used? Are there packages what must be modified. If so, taken from Devuan backport?

[dolphin_oracle]

While they serve a similar function elogind is not a drop in replacement for the systemd-shim. But it gets you a long way there.

Many packages just need rebuilt in debian to work with elogind, but its possible. Antix has been doing this the entire 17 series

[Head_on_a_Stick]

taken from Devuan backport

The elogind package is available directly from the Debian buster repositories but it is intended for machines that run without any systemd packages at all.

For clarity: it is possible to boot under sysvinit in Debian buster without elogind.

[rasat]

Many packages just need rebuilt in debian to work with elogind, but its possible. Antix has been doing this the entire 17 series

Curious what packages to rebuild, maybe taken directly from Devuan repo. The upgrade from ASCII (stretch) to Beawulf (buster) is a simple process by taking in consideration particular packages by adding a file /etc/apt/preferences.d/avoid_some_beo

Read more:
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2301

As an useful consideration for MX future major upgrades, Devuan does it smoothly which would inspire MX users..... one time install with lifetime semi-automatic upgrade.

[skidoo]

rasat, d_o has repeatly replied stating what's what, but for some reason you're hearing what you want to hear.

You should boot the antiX19 alpha and havealookaround.
antiX does what you've described slightly more cleanly than devuan does.
Take note of the packages with ~0nosystemd suffixed names and/or apt-cache policy and/or browse the antiX nosystemd repository to see whatall packages have been customized.

Curious what packages to rebuild, maybe taken directly from Devuan repo.

or "directly from the antiX repo".
For some reason, you seem to be convinced that Devuan has something which antiX lacks.
Either are fine, fine for booting sysV init & using buster repositories.
Neither are fine for switching back and fro between choice of init.

[rasat]

I am not focusing on antiX because Gnome will not install. Goes beyond my tech knowledge to get it to work. What I did, convert MX 18.2 stretch with Devuan ascii repo, which work fine with all MX tools in place, except plymouth was removed.
https://mn3m.info/posts/migrating-from- ... to-devuan/

Just did a respin for testing. Uploading soon.


Next test to upgrade to beawulf (buster).

[asqwerth]

I am not focusing on antiX because Gnome will not install. Goes beyond my tech knowledge to get it to work. What I did, convert MX 18.2 stretch with Devuan ascii repo, which work fine with all MX tools in place, except plymouth was removed.
https://mn3m.info/posts/migrating-from- ... to-devuan/

Just did a respin for testing. Uploading soon.


Next test to upgrade to beawulf (buster).

But it's the Buster/Beowulf upgrade that will be the real test for installing Gnome I believe, not the stretch to ascii conversion.

I'm not sure, but I think that Devuan's Stretch analogue (ASCII) might still not be fully systemd-free, so Gnome might still work on it. I'll be interested to hear the results of that (ie, Beowulf and Gnome) test.

(Devuan)...one time install with lifetime semi-automatic upgrade

The reason why semi-automatic rolling upgrades through different bases might be possible with Devuan Stable, like with pure Debian, is because the repos are kept in their conservative unchanged state. With MX packaging team, you can request and get newer versions of software to be packaged and used, but that may interfere with the upgrade path.

Like the MX website says here: https://mxlinux.org/mx-repos/

MX uses Debian Stable as a base, but updates a lot of the userland programs & libraries, and backports newer programs from testing by building them against the Stable base. That gives a better user experience but interferes with Debian’s dist-upgrade path....

So it’s a trade-off: better desktop user experience at the expense of having to do a quick fresh install (which lets you save /home if desired) when the Debian base changes, typically every 2-3 years.