Systemd free MX19?

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KBD
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Re: Systemd free MX19?

#51 Post by KBD »

gosia wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 12:25 pm
That's right, in that sense it's not a representative survey. But it also shows that 89% of the users work with SysVInit without problems, whether this is a conscious decision or not. It works for them, even if they don't think about it or don't know anything about it. So why should you suddenly switch to systemd?


So far I have still managed without systemd. In case of emergency (which I can't imagine) the answer would be simple: I look for a new distro that runs without systemd. How do BSD or Devuan users live, to name just a few examples? But doesn't the question already show that systemd is the wrong direction? Apps or parts of the computer that suddenly depend on a single init system? That's not what I want.

many greetings gosia
There is no question for the current MX release--It already runs systemd and sysVinit. The only reason there is a question at all is because our Debian Buster release for the future MX does not run the systemd shim. So it can only run one or the other init. If MX devs say they believe sysVinit will do the job and not cause a string of endless headaches for users--then we are done here :)
The big but is that we are already starting to run into issues for users unless they boot into systemd on MX. No problem, they, me, just boots into systemd. The question is do we fully abandon systemd, or sysVinit, for the next big MX release?

The good news is they have some time to figure it out. I just want them to take everything into consideration and not get stuck on an pure ideology that we all adore, but leaves us with lots of grief in the end.

Most of us think systemd sucks and Debian should never have followed it down the rabbit hole. But we also need our computers to work correctly, now and in the future.

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anticapitalista
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Re: Systemd free MX19?

#52 Post by anticapitalista »

My opinion only.

My bet is that the vast majority of existing MX users do not need to boot into systemd for their needs. (MX-18)
A sysvinit MX 'buster' will also work just fine for the vast majority of MX users.
anticapitalista
Reg. linux user #395339.

Philosophers have interpreted the world in many ways; the point is to change it.

antiX with runit - lean and mean.
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BitJam
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Re: Systemd free MX19?

#53 Post by BitJam »

anticapitalista wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 5:59 pmMy bet is that the vast majority of existing MX users do not need to boot into systemd for their needs. (MX-18) A sysvinit MX 'buster' will also work just fine for the vast majority of MX users.
In addition, if we can't fix the shim then we could continue making changes to some packages to let them work without systemd. IIUC fehlix has already done this for some VPN packages. Information from a Snap dev indicated it would be pretty straightforward to port some Snaps to sysvinit. Many snaps just use systemd as a convenience at install time. We can do the same things with non-systemd commands. Other snaps rely on systemd services when they run so those might be harder to port.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool."

-- Richard Feynman

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rasat
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Re: Systemd free MX19?

#54 Post by rasat »

Took a look at Devuan and Salix which were mention..... jessie and slack??!!
For many users its about if either systemd or sysinit fails at boot. With MX 18 there is the option to run either one. Its not about speed. I just installed antiX 19 on another partition, and compared with my existing MX gnome buster (systemd), boot time is same (~10 sec). IMHO boot time is not depended on boot system or debian based distro, but Debian itself gets faster at each upgrade.

Now by having sysinit and systemd on same machine with common /home, MX Linux will stay with me. :happy:
Last edited by rasat on Mon May 20, 2019 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JayM
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Re: Systemd free MX19?

#55 Post by JayM »

I accidentally booted with systemd for a few days: I use a flat grub menu and had multiple kernels installed at one time. when I was trying to get Cool 'n' Quiet to work, and I'd selected the wrong item on the boot menu. I didn't notice any difference in how MX ran. It wasn't until a few days later that I even noticed I'd been booting with systemd and corrected it.

I'm pretty sure that the vast majority, probably close to 99%, either don't even know what an init system is or does, or if they do they don't care which one MX has as long as everything works OK. Speaking of which, I seem to recall reading that systemv would break something about MX/antiX but I can't remember if it was the live persistent USB, the Live USB Maker, RemasterCC or just what it was?
Please read the Forum Rules, How To Ask For Help, How to Break Your System and Don't Break Debian. Always include your full Quick System Info (QSI) with each and every new help request.

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BitJam
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Re: Systemd free MX19?

#56 Post by BitJam »

JayM wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 9:29 pmI seem to recall reading that systemv would break something about MX/antiX but I can't remember if it was the live persistent USB, the Live USB Maker, RemasterCC or just what it was?
We've had trouble wresting control back from systemd so we can shut down the live system properly. When I first tried to do this back in 2015 or so, I thought it was a bad bug in systemd but it turns out they needlessly make this as difficult as possible on purpose.

You can Google(systemd initrd) for instructions. ISTM for either live or installed, you should be able to create a tmpfs at /run/initramfs/ that contains a "shutdown" executable script. That script should get run after systemd shuts down. Although for the script to do anything useful, you need to create an environment for it. The /bin directory from my Live-initrd repo might suffice.

If I were going to try it again, I'd copy the contents of our live initrd.gz to a tmpfs mounted at /run/initramfs/ and then copy the "init" file to "shutdown". If control gets passed to that script then you should see some signs of life. You can get the contents of our live initrd.gz from my Live-initrd repo our by using the unpack-initrd tool on our live initrd.gz.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool."

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figueroa
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Re: Systemd free MX19?

#57 Post by figueroa »

JayM wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 9:29 pmI'm pretty sure that the vast majority, probably close to 99%, either don't even know what an init system is or does, or if they do they don't care which one MX has as long as everything works OK.
I'm sure you are right. But, it matters to me as a system administrator. I am maintaining eight remote systems running systemd (all Mint). I don't like it much except for the most superficial things like restarting a process, which is easy once learned. It's going to take me forever to get my head around the amount of integration and dependencies and the resulting unintended consequences.

I'm not having trouble with those systems. I've managed to do what I need to do. On the other hand, it's an ideological battle that I'd like to win. :-)
Andy Figueroa
Using Unix from 1984; GNU/Linux from 1993

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BitJam
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Re: Systemd free MX19?

#58 Post by BitJam »

Pragmatism by a person who sees a little further ahead is often as deemed idealism by others. There was a time when the entire FOSS movement/community/method was deemed as being impractical and wildly idealistic. Yet it turned out that RMS and others were being extremely pragmatic by creating the GPL.

Any sufficiently advanced far-sighted pragmatism is indistinguishable from idealism. I would caution against calling an approach idealistic until you have a very deep understanding of what is involved.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool."

-- Richard Feynman

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gosia
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Re: Systemd free MX19?

#59 Post by gosia »

Hello KBD,
KBD wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 5:51 pm Most of us think systemd sucks and Debian should never have followed it down the rabbit hole.
Surprise, an important point on which we agree.
KBD wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 5:51 pm The big but is that we are already starting to run into issues for users unless they boot into systemd on MX.
This is going to be difficult for me. I do not know the problems and cannot judge them. But I look at Devuan, Artix, Slackware, the BSD world and see the many other small projects like Puppy and Void, which all start successfully without systemd and that makes me optimistic. If all these distributions manage to overcome and solve problems in their own way, then it should also be possible for the MX team.
KBD wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 5:51 pm I just want them to take everything into consideration and not get stuck on an pure ideology that we all adore, but leaves us with lots of grief in the end.
I try, but where does ideology start and where does it end? That's why I try as hard as I can to familiarize myself with the subject and follow the discussions. And as for the grief, I'm not sure if it's a little bit in the part of Debian that made the other decision.
But in the end the MX team makes the decision about the way forward, I just represent my opinion and try to fight for it.

To contribute something positive, thank you very much for the team who do an excellent job and sacrifice their time to give us a great distribution, which we can then criticize as "I still want this and that" ;)
Good that there is MX.

many greetings gosia

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uncle mark
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Re: Systemd free MX19?

#60 Post by uncle mark »

BitJam wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 12:01 am Any sufficiently advanced far-sighted pragmatism is indistinguishable from idealism.
Sounds like magic to me.
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