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To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

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rokytnji.1
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#21 Post by rokytnji.1 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:15 pm

stsoh wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:30 am
let's make it simple, try to create zram and zswap on systemd. :eek:

https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/
To add to the above. Might as well delete your /usr/local/bin files.
Cuz systemd defaults to doing it's own thing and uses it's self imposed rules as default.
Not the dev idea of what his distro should run like.

In other words. The steering wheel does not steer the car any more The in dash stereo knob does that function now.

Some folks may like to drive this way how ever. ;)

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timkb4cq
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#22 Post by timkb4cq » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:23 pm

To be fair, most end users aren't even writing small scripts and they aren't going to notice the issues with systemd.

But systemd certainly tries to do too much, needlessly reinventing wheels, gears, levers, and pipes. Some of its bits are quite useful but I don't want it in charge.
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stsoh
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#23 Post by stsoh » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:09 pm

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KBD
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#24 Post by KBD » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:57 pm

I've not been impressed with much when it comes to Ubuntu/Canonical, but I wish they had stuck to their guns with Upstart. It would have been nice to have two well supported init systems in Linux. You have choice in everything else regarding Linux from DE's to file managers, etc. I don't know who decided we should have "One Init System To Rule Them All...."

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handy
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#25 Post by handy » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:01 pm

I used Arch linux since early 2008. It used to have the most wonderful "unix like BSD style init" as it was called. Where you had an /etc/rc.conf that was quite a short file when you consider that you could configure most things that matter in your OS quite simply & easily (with initial reference to the ArchWiki of course).

Arch had a brilliant wiki (these days, I don't think it is as good as it used to be). All in all, I loved the old Arch, with its personalised custom setup; rolling release package management, & the wondrous pacman, to manage your packages.

Then the Arch "management" chose to move to systemd (I won't go into how so many of them - including the mods & trusted users - lowered themselves with personal attacks on anyone who disagreed with their stance re. systemd). I watched the arguments, I didn't get involved in any of them, but I could no longer use Arch due to my loss of respect for "most" not all, of those at the top.

I went back to BSD for a bit of time, during which I received an email from mips, who told me I should come over to Manjaro, as it was pretty new & had a small number of users; was Arch based & they had a really good attitude (noob friendly). So I went there in the latter part of 2011.

Manjaro was using systemd. I didn't like that, I don't like the ever growing systemd complexity. Simple is always better in my book. Then artoo (who's arguments, & the treatment that they & he had received by the Arch dudes, I was aware of), came over to Manjaro, where he was welcomed.

He has been, & still is, one of the main forces behind making the OpenRC init a viable proposition for Linux users outside of Gentoo (where it is still the native, with systemd as an option). Artoo put an enormous amount of work in (with others) to bring OpenRC up to the level that it is today.

I used Manjaro with the OpenRC init, until it was no longer supported, as artoo took it away & made the Artix distro (= Arch linux without systemd). He had done that with the help & inclusion of the other main (non-Gentoo) OpenRC people out there. Artoo moved from Manjaro as his project is less time consuming when systemd is not part of the distro - there was/is NO animosity between the two camps.

I didn't go straight to Artix when it first started up, I went over to Void (runit init) for a while. The init & package management were fine, though there are no where near enough packages available for me (I didn't want to make my own). I'm not sure where Void is up to at the mo' as last I heard the dev' disappeared?

Went to Artix, & it was great. Arch linux without systemd is fine by me. The Artix community/forum is fine. BUT, they don't use the same repo structure (naming) as Arch. This one problem, means that I can't use a wonderful piece of software that PIA VPN, supply to their users on "some other OS's" & Debian, Ubuntu, Mint, Arch (probably Red Hat & Fedora too), based distros. Which sucks! :( PIA are in the process of making their software all open source. So the day may come where I can make the tiny modifications needed.

So I went looking for systemd free distros. Devuan, Refracta - both OK, but not stable when I do what I do to them. MX 17, has been perfectly stable & I've made it nothing like it was meant to be by its creators. So here I sit. :)

If MX was running systemd, I would certainly not be here.

I could get into a rant as to why I don't like systemd, but I really couldn't be bothered, as it won't achieve anything.

So I'll leave it with the fact that I value freedom of choice, & since systemd has come along, there has been an ever diminishing amount of choices available to me, as a Linux user. Most point & click OS users wouldn't notice, & they most likely wouldn't care. I do.

If systemd had not been invented I'd most likely still be a happy Arch user (as would a number of other ex Arch users I know)...
Last edited by handy on Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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asqwerth
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#26 Post by asqwerth » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:14 am

@handy, void was still running nicely and getting updates as of 10 days ago. That was the last time I used my void+cinnamon partition on my pc.

I understand they're in the process of moving their repositories and at some point users will need to change the Repo locations.

It's quite a pleasant distro but yes, the number of packages is small compared to Debian or Arch.

On the other hand, I'm a normal everyday user and am pretty equal-opportunity about init systems, so I use Manjaro because I like it and it works well for me.

I just want freedom of choice in init systems like you, handy. People should not have problems running a program just because of the init they use.
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#27 Post by skidoo » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:34 am

I've helped to maintain the without-systemd.org wiki page: "Arguments against systemd"
Hopefully it stands as one of the most well-reasoned and most comprehensive references on the subject.

stsoh wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:09 pm
read this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/copypasta/comm ... simpleton/
That is a poor citation. It contains some misinformation.
Please step back from the (out-of-context) "copypasta" version; read the (probably) original discussion it was pasta'd from:
eli5_systemd_advantages_and_disadvantages

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stsoh
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#28 Post by stsoh » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:07 am

systemd vs kernel background history.
https://thenewstack.io/systemd-vs-linux-kernel/

inspiration-behind-systemd
https://thenewstack.io/unix-greatest-in ... d-systemd/

Note: was Torvalds an “enthusiastic supporter” of systemd?? :confused:
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HessenZone
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#29 Post by HessenZone » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:02 am

Wow, this post has turned into a real classroom lesson of sorts, for all those who don't know anything about systemd with its predecessors. Found this link to be fairly interesting as well:
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

I for one, not having to deal with systemd on a personal/coding level, have definitely received all the input and more that I can process about systemd. It's very refreshing to read all of the different comments, review the diversity of information within the supplied systemd links, and so on. Thank you to everyone for making this such an educational experience. :happy:
Have an excellent Sunday.
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FungalNet
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#30 Post by FungalNet » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:12 am

I don't know which init system precedes which in birthdate but OpenRC, S6, and Runit all took off, in interest and development, because of systemd. So this is one thing we must be thankful to systemd. If you think of another, let us know ;)

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