To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

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HessenZone
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To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#1 Post by HessenZone »

I ran across a post by someone on this forum who had issues with their MX install, which the user was able to correct by switching to systemd mode during boot. I don't know anything at all about systemd, but it made me curious what it is, how it's implemented, why it's implemented, and to understand the apparently ongoing controversy about it. Well, I could find quite a bit of information on systemd, but couldn't find any logical reasons why systemd should be eliminated in lieu of something else?

https://wiki.debian.org/systemd

https://www.infoworld.com/article/28324 ... users.html

https://www.tecmint.com/systemd-replaces-init-in-linux/

https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd

It's interesting (to me anyway) to read everything in these links because instead of being able to determine why systemd wouldn't be used by default for MX Linux installations, seeking some great enlightenment about this subject, quite the opposite happened. It's the default for Debian on which MX Linux is based. So now I'm wondering more than before, if running systemd by default aids in correcting potential problems, then why wouldn't systemd be used by default for MX Linux as well? That's the question that prompted this post, directed at any MX Linux developers who might be spending time here. Is it even possible to explain why systemd is not used by default, or is this strictly a matter of choice?
This post was written to promote professional / technical discussion (and to satisfy my curiosity).
Cheers.
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cyrilus31
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#2 Post by cyrilus31 »

You forgot the MX Wiki.

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HessenZone
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#3 Post by HessenZone »

Whoops, sorry, I didn't realize that the MX Wiki had a dedicated section for systemd. My bad ... :hitmyhead:
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Jerry3904
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#4 Post by Jerry3904 »

We set that out at the front (Section 1.7 "Our positions") of the Users Manual as well.
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#5 Post by HessenZone »

From the Wiki:
To be fair, systemd is good enough for most users and it's actively maintained which is no longer the case with sysvinit. OTOH, sysvinit has had a *long* time to weed out the bugs so one wouldn't expect it to need a lot of maintenance.
That does make me wonder though, at which point doesn't an obsolescence factor come into play? If sysvinit has no active support, does it not stand to reason that at some point, with future advancements in software as well as hardware, any system that uses sysvinit will become more prone to breakage and/or system crashes? Kind of like thinking about FAT versus FAT32 versus NTFS. Certainly at least (for sake of discussion) 99% of all Windoze users in todays world have the NTFS file system as their default, while perhaps another 1% might still be using software such as obsolete Windows98 or WindowsME which could also run with FAT32. But the FAT file system itself has become so obsolete that nobody would be using that anymore, unless they're using Windows 3.11 or the original Windows95 release.

Isn't there a risk that at some point, without active development, sysvinit will follow the same path as the FAT file system? And if that happens, would it not be much more difficult to then play catch-up with various alternatives to sysvinit for everything that's newer, actively developed & maintained? I understand that syvinit is not a file system, it's just the only thing that I could think of in order to make my comparison point.
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#6 Post by Jerry3904 »

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it--but note in the meantime that a user can boot into systemd on MX already, though there are residual problems such as we note in the Wiki article.

BTW: Jesse Smith (from DistroWatch) is updating sysvinit, see his contributions here
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#7 Post by asqwerth »

...And if that happens, would it not be much more difficult to then play catch-up with various alternatives to sysvinit for everything that's newer, actively developed & maintained?
Or waiting might mean that the newer init alternatives to systemd like runit, openrc or s6 might improve and grow in the interim?

I don't know the technical side of things but from what I'm able to vaguely grasp about general concepts, I suspect it's not so much that sysV becomes obsolete but more that certain developers of applications just take the "lazy" way out and choose to include prebuilt systemd "hooks" as a easy way to get their app's services or daemons initialized and up and running (since they assume most distros already have systemd), rather than code in a init-neutral way to work with whatever init system is running in the distro.

Thus, if Application X works with systemd and not with sysV or other init systems, it may look as if systemd is so much better or more modern than the other init systems, when what happened was that the programmer of the App X made the program look for systemd only. [Note: I could be completely off-course. Experts, please correct me if I'm wrong]

If more developers do that, then it may get more troublesome for non-systemd distro users to install certain applications or programs because they will need systemd by default.
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HessenZone
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#8 Post by HessenZone »

Well, I like what Jerry3904 had to say, because if the tried & true (flawless?) sysvinit is actually still being maintained by Jesse Smith or anyone else with the knowledge to do so, then by all means I suppose there's nothing wrong by continuing with the present methods for MX development. And based on the post by the other person, he or she used the grub customizer to manage booting into systemd by default, so that seems like a really good solution for anyone who might need systemd. Being able to use grub-customizer to default boot into MX with systemd actually seems like the perfect solution all-around since parties from both sides of the discussion are thereby able to have what they want, in a matter of seconds. Thus it becomes a permanent solution, while the second option still remains accessible to fall back on, for anyone, at anytime (on an installed MX setup).
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#9 Post by timkb4cq »

It is already an issue for a few programs that install a systemd script to start a service but don't include a sysvinit script. So far, debian has been adding those scripts when they include one in their repos.
The main issue is with third party programs that aren't licensed to allow repackaging and/or redistribution. We can often recommend a workaround for those if it is brought to our attention.

And sysvinit is getting maintenance again. Jessie Smith is fixing bugs and incompatibilities as they arise. He took the workarounds that the various distributions still using sysvinit had come up with and used that info to fix those problems in the main tree, and since then has been fixing bugs & incompatibilities as they arise. Most of it is small stuff because sysvinit is so mature, but he's keeping it current. :happy:
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Re: To systemd or not systemd - Ever wonder about it?

#10 Post by dreamer »

For me systemd is a hot topic because its "Windows design" that is hurting other init systems and putting a lot of power in the hands of a few individuals that clearly don't care about the Unix philosophy.

As a user I think systemd is frustrating because it doesn't work well out of the box like SysV or Upstart. As a systemd user you are supposed to write start-up delay scripts so that your desktop boots to a fully working state. Also you have to modify the shut-down time-out to less than 90 seconds if you think that is too long to wait for shutdown or restart. Some say the shutdown delay issue has been fixed but on most Linux forums it's an issue that regularly pops up.

On the other hand if you are a System Administrator maybe systemd is a gift from the gods. Many experienced Linux users do like systemd. Just don't expect a systemd based distro to work "out of the box".

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